Where was the evening and large gathering of “all” Gedolay Torah in the World against the low life scum who kissed the rectum of Ahmadinajad?
Where were the public posters and condemnations?
Did Rabbi Beck put his brother in Cherem, or does he still visit him quietly when he travels?
No, these low life scum who kiss the Iranians, continue in their Chillul Hashem while those frum charedim who wish to do national service or army are beaten up by the “holy” ones, protecting them for their own good.
Let’s not kid ourselves. This was a Charedi juggernaut and Charedim do not equal the “entire” Torah World. Rabbis Telsner and Groner made a poor judgement and some type of apology. I think they were politically naïve.
How many Mizrachi types will still frequent the professional Kollel “olderleit” at Beth Hatalmud after their Rosh Kollel still refuses to apologise for his participation in this Tefilla/Protest and the posters rude and offensive description.
I went to Kerem B’Yavneh,he first Hesder Yeshivah. We learned hard, at least as hard as the black garbed holier ones. It always shocked me how motivated the boys were in their learning and their defence of the country. The difference was that during the first Lebanon wars, my two room mates Zev Roitman and Chovav Landau הי’’ד (whose wife was pregnant with a boy at the time) were incinerated in their tank after a direct hit. They were the only two in a Yeshivah of 500+ who were killed. The Malach HaMoves was in my room, clearly.
Maybe someone will tell me that they should not have manned their tanks, and should have learned Boba Metzia instead, but my Torah doesn’t tell me that.
The word around town is that Rabbi Donenbaum from Heichal HaTorah felt he was “forced” to sign. Perhaps he could explain why in his weekly few pages of halacha.
Incredibly, when Gush Katif, Ashdod, Ashkelon etc were under fire, it was the Charedi Yeshivas, those whose learning protect us with their constant high class learning who ran away.
I’m ashamed of their action. They could have called for a half day Taanis in their own Shules. That’s at least private and could be timed for the same time. Instead they chose the emotive time of Ta’anis Esther, when they didn’t need to do any extra fasting, and will have us try to believe they had no thought of the connection between Haman and the democratically elected government of the “Treyfe Medina” whose money hand outs they covet and which has a duty to defend all its citizens and ask all to contribute to the Mitzvah of Milchama.
The imagery of barbed war around a Torah on the Melbourne Poster was positively inciteting and spewing with a brand of hatred that sickened me to my core. Maybe they should have davened solely for peace
pitputim 
Spot on. Hopefully Mizrachi Baalei Batim will cease to have any form of contact and cease all donations to the Kollel Beth HaTalmud.
One minor correction. Whilst Rabbi Donenbaum may have allegedly told one of his mitpallelim that he was pressured to sign and participate in the chill Hashem, he none the less demonstrated his true capricious colors when he delivered a musar Drasha to his mitpallelim on Shabbats justifying the demonstration.
Accordingly he can join the name and shame file together with Rabbis Beck and Wurtzberger.
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Hey Oracle, why’s that? Because they have a different opinion?
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I agree that it is a sad indictment on frum society today that so few (if any) of the gedoley Torah in the misnagdish and chassidic worlds speak out against the activities of those who employ violence and inflammatory rhetoric to make their anti-Zionist positions heard. (See an example of the sheer sinas chinam exhibited by some Satmar chasidim over Purim – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOBl-RJPQ3Y .)
However, the rallies in EY and NY and Melbourne were fairly harmless affairs and were not overtly anti-Zionist. There was no violence, no political speeches, and no inflammatory rhetoric against the Israeli government or Mr Lapid in the promotional materials (come on, the imagery of barbed wire is pretty harmless compared to some of the wording in the pashkevilim plastered all over here in Jerusalem every day). There were simply kepitlach of Tehillim.
So what is so wrong with attending such a gathering?
Even leading Dati Leumi figure Rav Aviner attended the Jerusalem event! He claimed that his kavannah when saying the kepitlach would differ from most of the other participants. True, maybe some (or most) at the Melbourne rally had kavannah that the Zionist establishment be dismantled, that the Israeli government fall, or that the Tal Law be revived. However, some might have simply intended their Tehillim as a prayer for peace – that Moshiach arrive speedily in our days, and that an IDF (and the draft of charedim) no longer be needed to defend EY from its enemies.
The approach of Mr Lapid and his ilk towards the draft has been widely criticised – including by his ministerial colleagues. Whilst the number of army recruits from the charedi world have increased significantly in recent years, this number is now set to decline thanks to Lapid’s confrontational, draconian legislation that includes criminal penalties for avoiding the draft. Financial and other “positive” incentives are likely to be far more effective in enticing charedi men to enlist. Lapid’s actions have placed the charedi leadership in a corner: if the Bnei Brak moderates were to even tacitly support the notion of the charedi draft – even for those not cut out to sit in kollel for years – this would be seen to be a capitulation to an avowedly secular government.
I am not charedi, but I do not believe that the position taken by the government was a wise one on this issue. Perhaps if I had had the time, I too would have participated in the rally in Jerusalem.
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Unfortunately the wrong room mate was in the tank it should’ve have been the other way around?
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Thank you very much for your death wish
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We in Chabad should explicitly and unambiguously distance ourselves from this later day religion of hate called charediism
It is as far from Shitas HaBaal Shem Tov as the truth is from deceit.
We must love every Jew and Learn Torah and beg HaShem that He sends Moshiach.
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Sorry Pinchos, but Chabad rabbonim worldwide are firmly on the side of the chareidim on this matter.
Dream on.
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Not all with whom I have spoken
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Since when has it become an issur deorayta to have a different opinion than that of mizrachi / Zionism??? Is it my way or the highway? Do mizrachi ever listen to another theory? Are we Democratic or communistic?? For some reason whenever there is a discussion about the state of Israel mizrachi is always right and everyone else is wrong.
Makes no sense to me…….
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Mr or Mrs Neutreh karta (sic) you are also sock pupating as Daas Elyon where you suggested that I should have perhaps been killed in Lebanon. Please desist from sock puppeting or you will be banned in the future.
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Play the ball, not the man, Isaac.
Answer his/her questions.
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Which question?
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All of them.
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All of what.
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Isaac, answer all of neutreh karta’s questions.
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[I had to edit this because of some aspects which were ad hominem attacks, but I’ve retained the gist of what was said]
Whilst I agree with almost everything that was said, it comes to my attention, yet again, that you defend the Groners and their offshoots.
They knew exactly what they were signing and if they didn’t, they should be removed from their positions. It has been shown time and time again that they have performed miserably in their roles and are there because of nepotism.
Rabbi Telsner has held senior positions overseas and should have known better, even if by experience. Rabbi Groner should have just kept quiet.
Time to call a spade a spade, and to rid the community of waste, just as local councils are being asked to do. remove surplus and bloated ranks.
Attending the rallies is not harmless. It adds support to this disease. It is Maarat ayin. One would see someone attending and assume they are supporting the cause. Use common sense.
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As much as I abhor the Charedi stance regarding their inability to do national service or work and their disrespect towards the government of Israel and demonstrations in the public forums they have chosen I find one aspect of this blog fascinating.
We have a ‘rumour around town’ about Rabbi Donebaum related in the main post and a comment written based on a statement from one of his unnamed ‘mispallelim’ about being coerced or bullied into signing as KEY SOURCES used to denigrate a Talmid Chochom
I typically find that unnamed sources in the Jewish community are ‘muckrakers’
Having attended his shul last Shabbos, I heard the Drasha he delivered from his pulpit, he did NOT shy away from signing and highlighted that as a Charedi he went to the Teffilah under the guidance of ALL Charedi Rabbonim both in Israel and US. ALL Charedi Daas Torah were instep with this Teffilah rally worldwide and therefore he willing followed suite and signed as a leading Rabbi in town.
I disagree with him on whether we have to follow or believe in the divine link between Hashem and Charedi Gedolim, however, I am only willing to judge a Talmid Chochom based on his public actions and words (signature) and leave the muckraking and Loshon Hora to others
I find the retraction letters from the Chabad community confusing and I can understand why Mispallelim who attend Yeshiva and Ohel Devorah would not be happy with their leadership however the hysteria is starting to look a little silly.
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I cannot and would not comment regards what occurred in Melbourne.
I must agree that anonymous comments cannot be taken seriously.
Regarding Chabad, I do not believe that the Rebbe of Righteous Memory supported public demonstrations, especially when there are of a condescending nature.
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I would go one further if I may. The Rebbe was ADAMANT that demonstrations be made in public. Demonstrations of brotherly love, of peace, of Jewish pride in whatever meaningful way it can be shown.
Neturei Karta doesn’t understand that Mizrachi, Modern Orthodox & others group are shocked & disgusted by the vicious hate filled demonstrations witnessed worldwide under the guise of Torah.
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You don’t believe!!?
So what?
The Chabad rabbonim in America and Israel clearly think differently than you do.
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So what!!! You are denying my right to express opinion?
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Huh?
You’re the one who’s so angry about the chareidim of Melbourne expressing their own opinion! Make up your mind.
And, Isaac, I know this is your blog, but I wasn’t talking to you.
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Actually I was asking why they did not call for a day of fasting and Tefilla when rockets were falling on Israel or when the Ahmadinajad sycophants caused massive CHILLUL Shomayim
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I’d actually prefer if people called a spade a spade.
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No, you’re denying OUR right to express our opinions.
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Really, where have I blocked you!
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not all, within Lubavitcher there are varying views today on most vital issues
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That makes him a coward. As a Rabbi, he should stand up for what he believes in. Why can people not think for themselves? Why can they not fight those above if they disagree? It is like saying nazis should be left alone because their leader said Jews are a nasty bunch. If you haven’t got the ability to fight for your belief, then you should not be a rabbi of a congregation.
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My Bulbin,
I think you should get a life and stop hucking on all the Rabbonei of Melbourne. Your constantly blogging against Rabbonim and Gedolim. If i was you i would be very careful. No good comes out from these things. Hashem takes care of those that talk bad on tzadikim.
Just get a life do teshiva. Its never too late.
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Chaim,
It is Balbin. I don’t “huck” on ALL the Rabbonim of Melbourne. I speak very highly of Gedolim that I follow and I quote them when they disagree with yours.
Thanks for your advice to be careful. Are you threatening me? Just remember. I DO follow Gedolim, but they are not YOUR Gedolim. VeDal.
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Thats the problem. You have your few gedolim that you follow and thats it. The rest are posel to you.
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That’s a problem? One should follow their Rav HaMuvhak. You do, but you deny me the right to? Come on, get a life.
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Sounds pretty hypocritical Isaac.
Why is it ok for you not to listen to the rabbonim who said to protest and daven about this terrible decree? Many hundreds of the greatest rabbonim worldwide includng chabad called for it, yet you think it’s terrible when Rabbi Donnebaum does it?
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I didn’t hear Rabbi Wurtzburger allegedly retract his support for example. I heard that Rabbis Telsner and Groner apologised and Rabbi Donenbaum felt he had to sign, whatever that means. He’s certainly entitled to follow his Brisker mentor R Meshulam Dovid Soloveitchik who is stridently opposed to the State of Israel as was his father. I follow his 1st cousins views and am both comfortable saying so or being criticised for doing so!
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I am pretty offended that a frum person – yodeya daas elyon – would write this: “Unfortunately the wrong room mate was in the tank it should’ve have been the other way around” and I hope others will also say something.
These idiotic, brainwashed guys also know that G-d wants, an annual event with much mirth and merriment.
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What makes you say it is a frum person. Its probably some guy trying to have some fun. Sadly in such a way. Dont just go and blame the frum people.
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Chaim, did you watch the video, don’t blame the frum people? “Its probably some guy trying to have some fun.” Are you serious??
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Guys I’m lecturing for four hours so you may see comments delayed 😫
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Teretz farren babben
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My Booba was lots more adept than you, by the look of things.
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Isaac, you and your colleagues were protecting people. That was an excellent reason for you to temporarily shelve your studies. But why do you want these students to be drafted? They’re not going to be defending people; I understand that they’ll have “community service” roles that are invented specifically for them. I suggest that the only justification for the draft is jealousy, which is not something to be encouraged. In fact it’s quite irrational here: you and your colleagues chose to serve and were proud to do so; why would you be jealous of someone who doesn’t make that choice and could take no pride in it?
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Mitzvos and Maasim Tovim are part of my vernacular and most importantly it will help dissipate the Sinah for Yahadus which has correctly been generated due to people not sharing a communal responsibility while collecting communal benefits and wanting the right to vote etc
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I suppose there might be mitzvos and maasim tovim associated with these artificial make-work projects, but I wouldn’t take it for granted. I certainly don’t think you’d suggest that bochrim in other countries should take off from their studies for similar work: it really does come down to the sinah that exists in this particular case. That being so, isn’t this like any other case where a religious Jew’s behavior inspires sinah? Telling them to leave their studies for these pointless tasks is like telling someone to eat treif at a banquet rather than stick out. Anyone who wants bochrim to leave their studies and (e.g.) pick up garbage is a rosho, plain and simple. Why should we encourage their evil scheme?
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Hey, if you don’t want to do it, go to Iran.
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Why?
The frum yidden weere in EY long before the freier Zionists.
Is it their fault some pokrei ol decided to establish a medina?
Let the Zionists move to Uganda as they first considered.
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If you were in the majority you have a point but where I come from, in a democratically elected government, if a section don’t like policies, they should leave.
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Who says they have to collect garbage? Let them train as paramedics. Let them teach. Let them learn to build schools. Let them work in army kitchens in order to ensure soldiers can eat proper kosher food. Work in hospitals. Patrol at nights in neighbourhoods ( mishtara Ezrachit). Are these not mitzvot? Can they not get an education and support themselves at the same time? What makes them better than anyone else? Better than me?
I studied ( and still do) while working full time. I support a family. Why shouldn’t they?
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Maybe they should, but that’s not what’s on offer here. This is a solution for a political problem, not a practical one. It’s not based on need or benefit to anyone; its sole purpose is to be able to say that “x” Haredim were drafted.
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Reuven,
These are yeshiva bochurim we’re talking about. Their place is in yeshiva, learning Torah, not working on Army bases or in hospitals.
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You can do both easily.
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I did both. My father did both. My grandfather did both. Stop using labels such as Bochum, gedoilim etc.
They choose to study and that is great. However, at what cost?
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Their place is following basic and clear Halacha for a Milchemes Mitzvah or Reshus.
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All a big huff n puff about nothing.
As many people said, there was no protest.
Jews upset about the law prayed to have it changed.
Why is that so terrible?
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Read Ian’s reply to Adass and my previous comments that I never saw anyone come out against the Ahmadinajad lovers and their CHILLUL HaShem and they could have actually done this via a simple hookup to the American event or had a 1/2 day Taanis in their Shules if they thought the Torah was being eradicated or under intolerable threat
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Well then, Isaac, you simply haven’t been looking.
Besides for the fact that one has nothing to do with the other, Adass issued a statement after the Iran visit, in the AJN. Check it out and feel free to apologise, as no doubt you are a man of integrity.
Why is it your business how or when this Yom Tefilla occurred? Why did it have to happen exactly as you wanted it?
Taanis Esther was picked, in great part,because it’s a time (afternoon) when many people are away from work because they’re fasting, and at mincha time which everyone needs to attend anyway.
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I saw what Adass wrote. Answer this. Is it true that on his trips Rabbi Beck still quietly visits his brother and is not beroigez? Is it not worth creating an ACHDUS PROTEST and Tefilla against these continuing Sonei Yisroel UMechallelai HaShem … Should the entire Torah World and non Jewish world see we disapprove? No, that will never happen. Why? Many from the Shomrei Emunah offshoot of Adass are even more radical than Toldos Aron and had cars ready with anti Israel signs and were going to drive around Melbourne until some heavies at Adass stepped in. Let’s not beat around the bush … They are anti the State in the extreme. That is their right and each person should know what THEIR Rav holds. I know what mine does. God willing I will post Rav Kook’s approach to this style of issue and THAT is how it should be done. Remember, Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalman used to peer through Rav Kooks window on Friday nights after learning to see what a Tzaddik does
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I will reply to this later this evening Gd willing.
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Again, Isaac, you are deflecting.
Isaac: I never saw anyone come out against the Ahmadinajad lovers and their CHILLUL HaShem
Gareth: Adass did so.
Isaac: Is it true that on his trips Rabbi Beck still quietly visits his brother and is not beroigez
Gareth: How is this relevant to the immediate point?
Will you now apologise for implying strongly that Adass never came out against those visiting Iran?
Hope that’s clear.
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Oh it’s simple. My point was that one issue is important enough and another which many consider at least as bad, is not treated in the same way.
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You are all missing a vital point.
Nowhere and never did R Telsner or CTG say that they withdraw from praying that this decree should be annulled.
They only changed their mind about the wording, and that’s only because major donors blew up with them. Which in itself shows a lack of guts and self confidence.
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And you know this because you spoke to them? Or is this your inference?
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More than inference. It’s exactly what they said.
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I’ve lost you. Please be more expansive than one liners.
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I know you’re not a dumb person, Isaac, so please try and pay attention.
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Thank you Gareth, I feel better now!
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to please Satmar they deleted that learning tora protects Israel
http://www.bhol.co.il/Article.aspx?id=65638
אמש בשעה 9:45 שעון ניו יורק התקשרו עסקני אגודת ישראל למעונו של האדמו”ר מסאטמר והעבירו דרך הפקס את הנוסח החדש של הקול קורא בלי השורות והמילים שהוכנסו לנוסח הקודם, והחתימה מחדש את האדמו”רים
השורות שהושמטו הינן: “אחינו בני ישראל! וכי מותר לנו לשבת בחיבוק ידים למשמע צרה כזאת, הרי תורת השם היא חיינו ואורך ימינו, וגם היא עיקר בטחונם של ישראל, כמאמרם ז”ל (מכות דף י’) על הפסוק עומדות היו רגלינו בשעריך ירושלים, מי גרם לרגלינו שיעמדו למלחמה, שערי ירושלים שהיו עוסקים בתורה”.
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What balderdash they misrepresent!
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הרב חיים יעקב גולדוויכט זצ”ל, מתהפך בקברו לראות דברי נבלה וחירוף וגידוף ר”ל יוצאים מיד מי שמתיימר להיות תלמיד בישיבתו. אוי לו למנבל פיו שלא זכר דברי חכמנו ז”ל במסכת סנהדרין צט : : היכי דמי אפיקורס ? האומר מאי אהני לן רבנן. וברש”י שם : והן אינן יודעין שהעולם מתקיים עליהם !
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Ahem he formed the first header yeshiva at the behest of the Chazon ish and guess what, he advised YECHIDIM such as Rav Efrati one of Rav Elyashivs right hand men not to go to the army. This sounds like the legislation for me! He visited the bochurim at their bases and gave shiurim
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Mr Balbin – perhaps you should read what one of YOUR rabbis had to say on these matters:
Rabbi Hershel Schachter:
“If the army is going to give away Yerushalyim [Jerusalem], then I would tell everyone to resign from the army – I’d tell them to shoot the Rosh Hamemshalah [Prime Minister],”
“No one should go to the army if they [the army] are doing aveirus [sins,” the rabbi continued. “We’re talking if the army is seeing to it that the country is secure, if they’re doing the right thing.
“I’m not sure if the army is doing the right thing,” he added, “we have to look into that.”
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/03/rabbi-hershel-s.html
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You’ve said nothing. In particular, I heard the whole shiurim, and the mere fact that you took it from Scott Rosenberg’s blog, is proof that you are relying on an unreliable second hand source.
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It was reported widely including here
http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/leading_yu_rabbi_shocksthen_apologizes
and here
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/15336/rav-hershel-schachter-from-yu-issues-apology-for-statement.html
so it seems your Rav Muvhak agrees that sometimes the Israeli government gets it wrong and one can disagree / protest
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I talk to him directly
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yes perhaps talk to him and find out how the Israeli government and army can make mistakes – and we have a right and obligation to protest when they are working against the Torah and those who want to learn full time and keep the Torah to the best of their ability, not watered down by the influences of the army etc.
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Who says they are working AGAINST the TORAH. Ever thought this is MANDATED by TORAH?
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Again, Isaac, you’re not answering to the point.
You keep deflecting and avoiding.
This might work well ifyou were a fencer, but on a blog it shows that you are disingenuous.
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I ‘aint avoiding anything, but I’m going to have to admit, that I’m unlikely to have any time hereon as it’s my daughter’s wedding on Sunday and there is much to do.
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Saying you ain’t doesn’t mean you ain’t.
I assume she’s marrying someone who served in the IDF?
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I honestly can’t follow your reasoning. You reply in quick fire. Perhaps stop and think before pressing.
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Maybe this is why Chareidim shouldn’t go into the Army. Look how scared this idiot gets after he spits at a girl – at 21 seconds.
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[lightly edited]
Rav Beck is as responsible for his brothers actions as you and your parents are for their family.
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So your tactic is to attempt a low blow?
How about READING what I wrote and getting us all answers.
We’ve heard that Rabbi Beck disapproved of his brother and his philosophy and actions. Good. We’ve also heard that he continued to visit him on his trips abroad (on the quiet) which is NOT good as it is contradictory. Now, which one is it?
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Why is it contradictory?
Your logic is highly flawed.
He is still his brother, as wrong as he might be.
By your logic, people whose children go OTD (RL) shouldn’t visit them or wallow these children in their homes.
Care to explain?
Or was it just a low blow against an ‘elderly rabbi’ (as you’ve called him before) who through no fault of his own has a radical brother?
Shame on you, Isaac. Trurly. A new low.
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He can visit him but he cannot also say he is against him and that he supports his being put in Cherem and that he DOESN’T speak to him. Which is it?
He also did this when he was less elderly.
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I don’t know what you mean by cherem.
Why can’t he visit him and be against his actions?
You have failed again to come up with a counter argument.
I’m seeing a pattern here Isaac. You mouth of in anger and then can’t back yourself up when you are argued with.
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“Gareth”. Firstly I am very calm and not angry. Secondly, there were wide reports of the other Beck being in Cherem. Given that his views are despicable, and the reports are that his brother no longer visits him as a result, it came as a surprise to me to hear that he allegedly does. Now, that could be because he is trying to convince him that meeting with Ahmadinajad is a very bad thing, or that he doesn’t mind that he does. If it’s the latter, I’d be perturbed to say the least. If it’s the former, then lets say THAT rather than statements from Adass which seek to distance themselves from such Jews.
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