Why do we have to count the Omer?

9 thoughts on “Why do we have to count the Omer?”

1. The suggestion that Chazal fixed the exact date for the Omer and not the Torah would appear to be negated by a pasuk in Sefer Yehoshua, at least as understood by the Rambam, which appears to explicitly interpret ממחרת השבת as ממחרת הפסח.

   רמב”ם הלכות תמידין ומוספין פרק ז

   ומפי השמועה למדו שאינה שבת אלא יום טוב וכן ראו תמיד הנביאים והסנהדרין בכל דור ודור שהיו מניפין את העומר בששה עשר בניסן בין בחול בין בשבת, והרי נאמר בתורה ולחם וקלי וכרמל לא תאכלו עד עצם היום הזה, ונאמר ויאכלו מעבור הארץ ממחרת הפסח מצות וקלוי, ואם תאמר שאותו הפסח בשבת אירע כמו שדמו הטפשים, היאך תלה הכתוב היתר אכילתם לחדש בדבר שאינו העיקר ולא הסיבה אלא נקרה נקרה, אלא מאחר שתלה הדבר במחרת הפסח הדבר ברור שמחרת הפסח היא העילה המתרת את החדש ואין משגיחין על אי זה יום הוא מימי השבוע.

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   1. Thanks for your comment. As you quote:
      וכן ראו תמיד הנביאים והסנהדרין בכל דור ודור שהיו מניפין את העומר בששה עשר בניסן בין בחול בין בשבת
      The Nevi’im and the Sanhedrin – not the Tora.
      Pesach is on the 14th of Nissan; see in יהושע ה,י , therefore ממחרת הפסח is the 15th, the first day of Chag Hamatzot. Nobody claims to have the Hanafat Ha’Omer on the first day of Chag Hamatzot. The Rambam agrees that Hanafat Ha’Omer was on the 16th (not Mimachrat HaPesach), the way that the Sanhedrin ruled for each generation.
      In Yehoshua we have also the RADAK’s opinion. He writes:
      ויאכלו מעבור הארץ. מהישן אכלו מצות וקלוי כי החדש היה אסור להם עד להקרבת העומר בששה עשר בניסן […] ומאין היה להם ישן? מה שהיו תגרי אומות מוכרים להם. ומלת מעבור מוכיח שהוא מן הישן […] ממחרת הפסח הוא ליל חמשה עשר בניסן ויומו, כי פסח קרב בארבעה עשר…
      See also Har Hamoria on that Rambam: הר המוריה הלכות תמידין ומוספין פרק ז הלכה יא
      לפי פי’ הרד”ק ביהושע שם שהלך בדרך הראב”ע דהאי ממחרת הפסח היינו יום ט”ו בניסן שהוא מחרתו של יום י”ד שהוא זמן הפסח ואכלו אז ישן א”כ לא מוכח מינה מידי […] )אף דלפי פי’ הראב”ע והרד”ק אין מהש”ס זה שום ראיה דו”ק והבן)
      Here we see that “מעבור הארץ” for the Rambam it is Chadash but for Radak it is Yashan. Each one with his own opinion.
      You quote the Rambam in your last paragraph:
      אלא מאחר שתלה הדבר במחרת הפסח הדבר ברור שמחרת הפסח היא העילה המתרת את החדש ואין משגיחין על אי זה יום הוא מימי השבוע.
      In my humble opinion I deduct from that passage of the Rambam: From the day after Pesach (not Chag ha’Matzot), as a date, Chadash is already allowed (העילה המתרת). But beside the date you need another act, the act of Hanafat Haomer, and this was fixed for the 16th of Nissan.

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      1. Thanks for your reply.
         You made a valiant attempt at reconciling the Rambam with your position, but I fail to find it convincing on several accounts. I’d be surprised if you will find any מפרשים explaining the Rambam that way.
         1. “ומפי השמועה למדו” clearly indicates that the source of this דין is the תורה שבעל פה. The phrase “וכן ראו…” is merely bringing corroborating evidence that this was a received tradition, based on the fact that from the time of the נביאים and onwards this is how the דין was understood, as can be seen from ספר יהושע.
         2. You’re assuming the Rambam holds ממחרת הפסח means the 15th because that’s how you and the Radak understand the פסוקים (also supported by במדבר לג ג), but other Rishonim didn’t understand them that way (תוספות קידושין לז: ד”ה ממחרת השבת) and the Rambam clearly holds like them, equating ממחרת השבת with ממחרת הפסח. To say otherwise is to twist his words completely out of shape. (As for how the Rambam would justify explaining ממחרת הפסח as the 15th, see a beautiful explanation in the footnote on דעת מקרא on ספר יהושע.)
         3. I was aware that other מפרשים read the pasuk differently, and the Radak seems to follow an approach in the Yerushalmi, apparently against that of the Bavli in קידושין לז: that understood that they ate חדש. It should be noted, however, that the Radak’s approach, while addressing the ממחרת הפסח term well, is quite forced in several other respects, as the numerous textual parallels between ספר יהושע and פרשת אמור (i.e. ממחרת, קלוי, עצם היום הזה) would suggest that they ate חדש. It would seem that on this basis דעת מקרא follows the approach that ממחרת הפסח means the 16th.
         (From the excerpt you quoted, it sounds like הר המוריה might be defending Radak with regard to the Bavli, although I’m not sure because I haven’t seen that פירוש inside.)
         4. While your approach isn’t supported by the Rambam or what is (according to דעת מקרא) the “poshut pshat” of Yehoshua, it is supported by the כוזרי ג מא, who takes a similar approach.
         Kol tuv,
         Danny

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         1. @ Danny,

            Agree with your paragraph no. 1. But where have I contradicted it?
            About Sefer Yehoshua – just showed that there are different opinions, and pointed out the difference between the Rambam and Radak.

            Your paragraph no.2. I did not assume that the Rambam means the 15th of Nissan for bringing the Omer. I said it specifically in my reply that he means the 16th. The Tosfot there in Kidushin deliberate what Mimacharat Hapesach is. The Tosafot also mention that there are different views. They even give there a surprising saying:” ור”י מפרש נהי דבעלמא ממחרת הפסח הוי ט”ו הכא ר”ל ט”ז ולשון התורה לחוד ולשון נביאים לחוד ולשון חכמים לחוד “.
            The Rambam, probably, does not differentiate between Pesach and Chag Hamatzot.
            You also say: ” and the Rambam clearly holds like them, equating ממחרת השבת with ממחרת הפסח. To say otherwise is to twist his words completely out of shape.”
            Who suggested saying otherwise? Nobody is twisting his words just quoting him.
            ממחרת השבת for the counting of the Omer was fixed by Chazal. ממחרת הפסח has different opinions: is it the day after Korban Pesach or is it the day after the first day of Chag Hamatzot. The different opinions are what the meaning of the words are, not when you bring the Omer. The Rambam thinks it is the 16th of Nissan, after the Omer, therefore, in Yehoshua, מעבור הארץ is Chadash. Others, including Radak, think it is the 15th of Nissan, therefore מעבור הארץ is Yashan.
            Paragraph 3. As said – ממחרת השבת means the 16th of Nissan by all except the Beytusim.
            Just for order’s sake:
            I never said that Hanafat Haomer was not on the 16th of Nissan;
            There are two opinions on what is meant in Sefer Yehoshua. I just mentioned them but did not support any of them. They do not need my support;

            In the last passage I allowed myself to comment, but saying that it was “in my humble opinion”. Why did I do it?
            The Rambam says there העילה המתרת את החדש and he does not mention the Korban or Hanafat Haomer (which must be brought before allowing Chadash). It is just an observation of Rambam’s saying. I found it quite interesting. This said, I am sure that Rambam’s opinion is also that not only the date allows Chadash but it needs also Hanafat Haomer and Korban Haomer.

            Thanks for your deliberations.

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            1. Dear Meir,

               Paragraph 1: Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. I believe that the normal understanding of “ומפי השמועה למדו” means that it comes from Hashem directly or through derivation by Chazal, but not through the discretionary decision of חז”ל. The mention of נביאים and סנהדרין is not to say that they decided this, but to say that this is what they always practiced, indicating that this was the received tradition.

               Paragraph 2: Earlier you wrote: “Pesach is on the 14th of Nissan; see in יהושע ה,י , therefore ממחרת הפסח is the 15th, the first day of Chag Hamatzot.” This gives the impression that you are saying that everyone interprets the words ממחרת הפסח in this way, including the Rambam. You say that isn’t what you intended.

               Re: העילה המתרת – The Rambam’s point with this wording is clear (לענ”ד). It is the date relative to יום טוב that is קובע, and not the day of the week. He doesn’t mention the קרבן or הנפת העומר because they are not relevant to the discussion.

               Kol tuv,
               Danny

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               1. @ Reb Eisenberg,

                  I tried to explain. I get the impression that you probably mix up
                  ממחרת השבת
                  which deals with the Omer, and
                  ממחרת הפסח
                  which refers in Sefer Yehoshua AS JUST A DATE.

                  Pesach is on the 14th of Nissan, the Tora writes it Beferush. The following days are called Chag Hamatzot.
                  Today we do not have a Korban Pesach, therefore no Pesach. We do call the following seven days of Chag Hamatzot as PESACH (is it by error or some other reason?), although in our prayers we still refer to it as Chag Hamatzot. I did write that: The Rambam, probably, does not differentiate between Pesach and Chag Hamatzot (the same as we do now)

                  Your second paragraph; Mimacharat Hapesach is in Sefer Yehoshua, and as we agreed already that there is a Machloket about that DATE. This is just a historical date as the date that Yehoshua and Bne Yisrael entered Eretz Cna’an and has no relation to when we should bring the offering of Korban Pesach, observe Passover (Chag Hamatzot) or bring the Omer.

                  Chag Atzmauth Sameach.

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2. Shalom Meir,

   This correspondence isn’t getting us anywhere here. I don’t think I’m getting my point across, and you are probably not either. Maybe if we meet one day we can discuss it in person.

   Thanks for your efforts.
   Kol tuv,
   Danny

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   1. R’ Danny Shalom,

      See my reply to milhousevh here:
      https://pitputim.wordpress.com/2014/05/25/guest-post-on-shavuos-by-r-meir-deutsch/#comment-4471
      I am sorry that I did not get to the bottom of your comments. I do hope that the above will also answer some of your queries. If not, at least I tried.

      Wishing you Chag “Yom Yerushalayim” Sameach,
      Meir

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3. Agree with your paragraph no. 1. But where have I contradicted it?

   Danny is right. You explicitly contradicted it in your article, when you claimed that the date of the omer was not from the Torah but was made up by Chazal. The Rambam says clearly that it is מפי השמועה, which means it is Torah sheb’al peh, and not made up by Chazal. He says clearly that Chazal did not choose the date for the omer, and you say clearly that they did. Thus you contradict him.

   The only way there could be no contradiction would be if you believe, chas vesholom, that Torah sheb’al Peh is not from Hashem, that it’s the discretionary decisions of Chazal! I’m sure you don’t believe such a thing, but it’s hard to read your replies to Danny in any other way.

   I’d also like to know what you think is surprising about לשון התורה לחוד ולשון נביאים לחוד ולשון חכמים לחוד. This is a common rule.

   Also, why do you quote ספר היובלות ? Who cares what that book says? How is it at all relevant? אני מביא לך ראיה מן התורה ואתה מביא ראיה מן השוטים! We are discussing the Jewish calendar, the calendar according to which the festivals are determined, not whatever stupid calendar that book happens to describe. There was never a time when the Jewish calendar had a 364-day year.

   Nor, for that matter, was there ever a time when five months could be 150 days. A Jew learns chumash with Rashi, the chief of the pashtanim.

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