So, all the treyf gelatin that has been around for ages is suddenly acceptable! The company that makes the Gelatin have never been interested in Kashrus.
Look at the list from “It’s kosher?”
PK®Blue Mint
Hubba Bubba®Strawberry Original
Extra® Peppermint Spearmint Strawberry,
EXTRA® Active™ Peppermint Spearmint
ECLIPSE® Peppermint Spearmint Cool Breeze Berry
ECLIPSE® Chewy mints Spearmint Fruit Trio Peppermint Watermelon & Strawberry
EXTRA® Professional Lemon Lime Bubblemint Peppermint
AIRWAVES® Menthol Eucalyptus 5gum® Cobalt (peppermint) Electro (spearmint) Tempest (watermelon)
Strawberry. SKITTLES® Fruits
Sours and Tropical
Now what I want to see is
- Each overseas Posek, who he likes to be photographed with happily munching on these based on his authoritative Psak
- His wife and children doing likewise.
Forget about either. It’s a business. Those who eat out, also follow this “authority”.
Open your books and stop taking the community on a rodeo.
The bottom line: if they still have a taste after 3 minutes, they are trayf.
pitputim 
So, all the treyf gelatin that has been around for ages is suddenly acceptable!
Wait a minute. There are many poskim who hold exactly that. Not suddenly, it’s always been acceptable, and it’s never been treif. You and I may prefer to be machmir like the poskim who asser gelatin, but we have no right to say that the mattirim are wrong. If R Chaim Ozer says something is kosher, who are we to say it’s treif?
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I am sorry, but Rubbo D’Rubbo never accepted R’ Chaim Ozer’s Psak. Not in Melbourne or anywhere
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In NYC there are restaurants open on Shabbos with a hechsher, there will always be a maverick rabbi who will find a heater, either for money or kovod of some type.
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I remember in Bombay, there was a fully kosher falafel store. There were no kosher eateries except in the house of Rav Gavriel and Rivka Holtzberg הי’’ד. The Israeli who owned the falafel store was doing very well and was being influenced by Rav Gavriel and wanted to have it with a Mehadrin hechsher. Rav Gavriel discussed it with me, and I argued that since there were so many Israelis, perhaps the hetter of having a non Jewish partner who made all the profits etc on Shabbos, might save people from Averyos by going to non Kosher places. I urged him to speak to a leading Posek and discuss this type of situation (which is not Melbourne or NYC). Alas, he was murdered before I found out. He, however, was less excited by the Hetter than me.
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In India maybe a suitable arrangement, to have an arrangement for a non Jew to be the Shabbos owner with a proper shtar etc.
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“but Rubbo D’Rubbo never accepted R’ Chaim Ozer’s Psak”. and even it is so, it dosen’t make treif!
Rubbo D’Rubbo didn’t accept r’ Moishes (and Chazon ish Psak on government supervised milk , does that make it Chalav Akum?
that isn’t the way that Halacha works. it is ok for you to say: that now that know that we have kosher Gelatin Kwchol Hadeot, why use a product that is a “problem” but never say why use a product that is Treif
if you want to pick on Meir Rabbi, go ahead , but first make sure that you know the way Halacha works!
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Rubbo D’Rubbo DID accept the Chazon Ish and R’ Moshe and the Levush because they DRINK IT
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they drank it, do they still drink it?
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/?id=536
שאלה:
האם מותר לאכול ג’לטין? ממה הוא עשוי?
תשובה:
הג’לטין עשוי מעצמות בהמה טמאה.
בג’לטין זה – יש רבנויות המאשרות את תשמישו ויש רבנויות שלא. הבד”צים ללא יוצא מן הכלל אינם מאשרים את השימוש בג’לטין זה. יש ג’לטין העשוי מעצמות דגים בכשרות של בד”צ בעלז, המאושר על ידי חלק מהבד”צים.
לאפיה ביתית יש תחליף הנקרא גלוטן, המאושר על כל הבד”צים. זה נותן כמעט את אותו אפקט של הג’לטין, זאת אומרת שהוא מקשה כמו הג’לטין, אבל הוא לא מעצב.
תשובת הרב יעקב אריאל
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Um, bimchilas Rav Ariel’s kovod, that’s nonsense. Gluten and gelatin are not even remotely similar, and there is no recipe in the world in which one can be substituted for the other. Gelatin is not used in baking at all.
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In Israel many products are labelled כשר לאוכלי ג׳לטין. I’m not entirely sure who gives the hechsher, although I think with the products I saw it was the Rabbanut HaRashit. My sense is that rabbanim in Israel treat it as a machloket, but certain kehillas (such as Australia and South Africa) adopted the machmir shita.
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I am not sure, it would be interesting to find out. I am all for riders. I also think products should say that are Na’aseh M’Avkat Chalav.
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Rav Danny, there are in fact very few products in EY that say “כשר לאוכלי ג׳לטין”. These are all imported and only have an ishur of the Israeli Rabbanut. The Rabbanut will not allow gelatine from non-kosher animals in the products it supervises directly.
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Thanks Benseon.
The fact that they give it an ishur means something too. I think someone once told me that the Rabbanut won’t give an ishur to products with a hechsher from Chu”l which have a chashash chadash (which plenty of hechsherim in Chu”l are meikil about).
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In Melbourne, even though Chodosh really isn’t an issue, all the bakeries are Makpid. You only need one hungarian 🙂
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Isaac – The last time I contacted a local kashrus expert to ask, I was told that between December and Pesach there is no way of guaranteeing that the flour used is yoshon.
Are you positive that Glicks in Melbourne is makpid? If so, I will ask them to confirm what they do here in Sydney.
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I’m not positive. I will check.
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That’s interesting.
Around 4 years I was involved in organising a visit by Rav Mosheh Lichtenstein to Sydney and Melbourne. He told me he was nizhar with chadash and asked me to make the appropriate arrangements. I made inquiries from Mizrachi Melbourne. They looked into it and organised to get some of Rav Beck’s own challahs for him. So I assume what you are saying wasn’t the case then. Do you know how long that has been the state of affairs?
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Haymishe Bakery which is under Rav Beck, the brother of the infamous Moshe Ber Beck, always was nizhar. My understanding and I could be wrong is that Glick’s wasn’t but now is. Interesting that Rav Moshe was nizhar. Probably because he’d need hatoras nedorim. His Zayde and Rav Schachter were/are not machmir as I recall?
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Rav Mosheh’s position was the same as Rav Aharon zt”l’s, who personally believed it was a din d’oraita leaving no room lehakel. But, k’darko, he didn’t tell others what to do. When I asked him, he said something like, “if you think it’s a din d’rabanan, then there’s what to talk about, but I don’t.”
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You talking about Chodosh?
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I’ve clarified the Chodosh situation in Melbourne (at least at Glick’s and others under Kosher Australia)
They have never been makpid on Chodosh here in Australia. Perhaps (apart from the general tendency to be meikel bichlal with Chodosh – other than perhaps in some Litvishe circles ) the leniency is because the wheat growing seasons here in Australia are such that the problem is confined to about mid-February till Pesach – usually only about a 6-7 week period. Even then, we are only being choshesh for the summer wheat flour (from wheat usually harvested end of December to end of January) having been stored, milled, packaged, again stored and then entering the markets already during that time. Quite often the flour from the summer harvest will enter much later so it is only a sofek till Pesach. As such, it is at the most a sofek derabbonon for which there is ample grounds to be meikel even then. In any event if one wants to be machmir they are advised that this only has to be from February till Pesach
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The website isn’t letting me respond to your question in the right place.
Re: R’ Aharon zt”l – I was talking about chodosh.
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Kotler or Lichtenstein
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Rav Danny – true, they generally won’t give a hechsher to imported products that are chodosh, although they have in the past and simply issued a warning post facto. See, for example, http://www.jerusalemkoshernews.com/2012/01/israel-chodosh-concerns/
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I did some research on Google.
The “heilige” wikipedia entry on gelatin (https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%92'%D7%9C%D7%98%D7%99%D7%9F, sub-heading “בעיות כשרות”) says that the Rabbanut permitted gelatin from non-kosher sources. It doesn’t provide a source. The OU article they reference (on a different issue), says every major kosher certifying organisation has rejected the use of gelatin.
Rav Yaakov Ariel said some Rabbanuyot allow (מאשרים) its use and some don’t. Badatzim all don’t. (http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/?id=536). Does that mean they allow it or give an אישור to products which contain it? Unclear, although I assume he means the former.
Rav Veitman of Tnuva (http://www.kashrut-tnuva.co.il/articles.php?actions=show&id=675) concludes that it cannot be used in Mehadrin-level products, because of the significant אוסרים, but can be used in products of normal-level kashrut based on the significant poskim who were matir.
Bottom line: It’s certainly not treyf and it’s certainly not mehadrin.
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Are they talking about from bones (r Chaim ozer) or HIDES
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Mostly bones. Rav Veitman says parenthetically: (לגבי ג’לטין משאריות עורות מעובדים יש מקום רב יותר להקל, לגבי ג’לטין המופק מעורות חזירים – מוסכם לאסור, ולגבי המופק מדגים טהורים – מוסכם להתיר).
I don’t know exactly what that means.
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I’m not sure what’s unclear. There is no chidush about fish and chazer, but he’s saying there is space to be meikel with skin. I don’t know who he cites, but when it’s a davar hamamid AND there are plenty of alternatives AND there is a growing group of vegetarians and vegans, it would seem to be opportunism to make kosher things that the Rabbi hamchshir is also a part business owner and whose children and house apparently don’t use such products. What do we have here? We have people who eat this and also eat out. That’s a fact. There are precious few outliers who confront the communal kashrut organisation which lists mehadrin and non mehadrin. South Africa is the model of kashrus that should exist in Australia. It’s basically run by litvaks and lubavitchers. No Hungarian chumros
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Rav Danny, looks like we’re not the only ones confused about the Rabbanut’s policy on the issue. See footnote 27 here: http://www.torahmusings.com/2014/07/gelatin-halacha-recent-developments/#fn27-36722
Having lived in EY for over four years, I do not recall seeing any products with a rabbanut hechsher that contained gelatine from a treif animal. However, perhaps they do exist, but are simply elusive!
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Interesting! Shkoach
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See http://www.kashrut.com/articles/DryBones/ that the heter of R’ Chaim Ozer is not applicable to hides.
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Thank you. Especially to thick hides 🙂
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Some years ago, Rabbi Moshe Gutnick of the (Sydney) Kashrut Authority had a debate with Rabbi Meir Rabi on the KA’s Facebook group specifically about the latter’s acceptance of gelatine. Needless to say, Rabi referenced Rav Chaim Ozer. Rav Gutnick responded with the following which, I believe, sums it up cogently (and I kept a copy of it as I felt it was such an apt description of “It’s Kosher” and its owner):
“Isn’t it then the height of gall, for you to presuppose you are better than the entire world Rabbinate, and you then permit that which has been forbidden. You dress it up in the language of Halacha, and your audience who knows not better may even be fooled, but the fact is you are representing a position that has been rejected. Would you bring back chicken and milk? Indeed most of your halachic innovations, are you against the rest of the world. You do not subject yourself to peer review and quite the contrary it is usually you against the rest of the Rabbinate.”
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There is also Rav Abadi, but Meir doesn’t come to Rav Abadi’s ankles.
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While I certainly have issues with MR’s approach, specifically on the point of whether his family eats from his hechsher – I heard from R’ Veitman (aforementioned, of Tnuva) that part of the approach of some Rabbanuyot with their 2 levels of kashrut (regular and Mehadrin) is to try and ensure that as much food in Israel can be made kosher at least to the minimum standard (regular), even if it means relying on heterim that are not ideal. (In J-m the regular Rabbanut standard is quite high. But it’s not the same in every place.) Those who are “serious” about their kashrus he advised to seek out Mehadrin when conveniently possible. Although, he said that it depends on the kinds of products. Some are at greater risk of problems than others.
On that basis, presumably rabbanim involved in those Rabbanuyot which set lower standards, would not use the products they give a regular hechsher to themselves.
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This is done in Melbourne by the Kashrus authority. MR takes it a step below, in my opinion
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Granted. But every kashrus organisation decides where they want to draw the line.
And it was R’ Aharon Lichtenstein I was referring to.
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Interesting. He was his own man. In my recesses I think the Rav and Rav Hershel Schachter were not machmir in chutz lo-oretz. I could be very wrong. I will try to remember to check
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He was indeed. An interesting anecdote: A friend told me he asked RAL a shayla and was told “The Rav said it’s allowed.” When he asked, “so it’s ok?” RAL just repeated, “the Rav said it’s allowed”. Apparently, he was avoiding voicing his own more machmir opinion.
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But that was also the Gadlus of the Rav. He empowered. For example, the Rav was against Techeles, but Rav Hershel doesn’t mind. Mesora was huge if you were from Beis HoRav, but the Rav was not an imposer. Say a bad sevoro or ask a Lloyd kashe, now that was dangerous 🙂
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It goes back to the Vilna Gaon. There’s an interesting dichotomy. The Gaon’s talmudim studied his every move, but the Gaon told R’ Chaim Volozhyn to pasken as he (R’ Chaim) understood the sugya, and not to just follow the Shulchan Aruch or any other psak.
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That’s the brisker derech, but it doesn’t always work out. R itseleh had brilliant clear chiddushim, but wasn’t accepted as a posek, and R Chaim told people to go to R Simcha Zelig who by the way has living relatives in Melbourne!
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I think you’re right about the Rav on Chadash in Chu”l.
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I once asked the Victorian Department of Primary Industries how long it took from the December harvest until the wheat would show up on supermarket shelves in the form of flour or baked goods, and they said it took a minimum of over a year.
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Goodness, no wonder there are issues with critters in the flour. Good old Aussie efficiency 😉
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That may be different though for bakers?
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I can’t remember who told me but apparently the real Chadash issue in Australia today is with the big cereal companies (I think Sanitarium was one mentioned) who have sped up their manufacturing processes to take them from planting to finished product in a few months.
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Actually, I don’t think wheat grows that quickly, so my recollection might not be accurate. I think the point was that the wheat was harvested on demand, so Chadash was much more prevalent.
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My information comes from the Rav Hamachshir in Melbourne
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Right, but I thought he might only have been discussing the bakeries, and not non-bread producers.
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Unfortunately not. Always expect the unexpected.
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I also asked them whether there was ever a time when no VIctorian farmers needed rain, and they said there is no such time. Every day of the year, some farmer, somewhere in Victoria, is praying for rain.
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And we have a billion dollar salination plant which is doing nothing. Queensland, NSW and Tasmania have plenty of water. It’s beyond belief they don’t do pipelining
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This has nothing to do with drought conditions or other emergencies, just about the normal agricultural cycle. We pray for rain whenever our farmers need it, not just if there’s a drought. Even in normal conditions, rain comes from Hashem, and if we want it we have to ask him for it. Halacha assumes that in the summer no rain is needed or wanted, which is why we don’t pray for it. And there’s a whole problem if one lives in a place where rain is not wanted at a time when the world says Tal Umatar.
What I found out is that Victoria has no such problem; we always want rain. There’s always a crop growing that needs it. So we need to pray for rain all year, sometimes in one place and sometimes in another, but never is it an error, as it is in countries with Mediterranean climates.
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This was in the context of saying mashiv haruach in error?
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Tal Umatar, and also when we should be saying it in Shomea Tefilah. The answer means that in Victoria, at least, and probably all of Australia, whenever one is not saying Tal Umatar in Barech Alenu one should say it instead in Shomea Tefillah, and that if one said it in Barech Alenu one should never repeat shmoneh esreh.
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I heard – I can’t recall from whom – that the late Rabbi Groner ZTz”L paskened that people shouldn’t repeat Shmone Esreh if they mixed up mashiv haruach/morid hatal. I never heard that people in Australia should make a regular addition to Shomea Tefilla, and the idea strikes me as odd. Why should I pray for rain for some farmer when other farmers would probably prefer to have sun? And to make it a permanent addition would be to change the Shmone Esreh.
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He may have paskened for someone who had been in Israel?
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With regards to fish gelatin, why aren’t we concerned about eating it with meat? Chamira sakanta meissura and so forth.
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We are meikel with Fish derivatives unless you are Hungarian. There is a safek Sakana as many poskim hold that fish with meat was not mesora but the best science of the time. This is why OU have a special category for things like wocstershire sauce
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Rav Danny Eisenberg
the reason for the 2 levels of kashrut, is very simple. the privte kashruth organizationos are able to set their standarts, but the Rabbanut who is a government body, may be forced to certify a produt as kosher, as long it is kosher, even it is based on a kula.
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/ktav_et/maamarim/fixlerona.pdf:
page 12.
ביטוי נוסף להגבלת שיקולי הרבנות ל”גרעין הקשה” של דיני הכשרות ניתן למצוא בפסק הדין בפרשה זו הודיעה הרבנות למשחטה כי תשלול ממנה את תעודת ההכשר אם 21 בפרשת אביב. תוסיף למכור את עופות הטריפה (העופות שנפסלו בשחיטתם ואינם כשרים) לחברת אביב אוסובלנסקי, אשר שיווקה אותם לקהל היהודי, בהצהירה כי מדובר במוצרים שאינם כשרים, הרבנות התירה את מכירת הטריפות רק לשוק, הלא-יהודי. במהלך הדיון הודיעה הרבנות כי היא חוזרת בה מעמדתה ותהיה מוכנה לתת תעודת הכשר למשחטה גם אם יימכרו הטריפות לחברה הנ”ל, אך תעודות ההכשר ברמת “מהדרין” ו”גלאט” תישללנה ממנה. במהלך הדיון נוכח בית המשפט לדעת כי מגמתה של הרבנות הינה למנוע הגעת בשר לא-כשר לצרכנים יהודים. גם במקרה זה לא קיבל השופט חשין את עמדת הרבנות, וזאת על אף שמדובר בתעודות הכשר נוספות מעבר לזו הבסיסית. טענת הרבנות היתה כי תעודות “מהדרין” הינן בגדר הסדר וולונטארי והן אינן ניתנות מכוח חוק הכשרות. פסק הדין דוחה טענה זו מכל וכל וקובע כי על אף שבסמכותה של הרבנות לתת תעודות כשרות ברמות שונות ולדרוש לשם כך דרישות הלכתיות שונות, הרי ש”דין תעודת הכשר “מהדרין” כדין תעודת הכשר רגילה. ומה זו האחרונה22 כופפת עצמה להוראות חוק איסור הונאה – ולכל דבר ועניין – כן היא ראשונה
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Rav Danny Eisenberg
the reason for the 2 levels of kashrut, is very simple. the private kashruth organizations are able to set their standards, but the Rabbanut who is a government body, may be forced to certify a product as kosher, as long it is kosher, even it is based on a kula.
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/ktav_et/maamarim/fixlerona.pdf:
page 12.
ביטוי נוסף להגבלת שיקולי הרבנות ל”גרעין הקשה” של דיני הכשרות ניתן למצוא בפסק הדין בפרשה זו הודיעה הרבנות למשחטה כי תשלול ממנה את תעודת ההכשר אם 21 בפרשת אביב. תוסיף למכור את עופות הטריפה (העופות שנפסלו בשחיטתם ואינם כשרים) לחברת אביב אוסובלנסקי, אשר שיווקה אותם לקהל היהודי, בהצהירה כי מדובר במוצרים שאינם כשרים, הרבנות התירה את מכירת הטריפות רק לשוק, הלא-יהודי. במהלך הדיון הודיעה הרבנות כי היא חוזרת בה מעמדתה ותהיה מוכנה לתת תעודת הכשר למשחטה גם אם יימכרו הטריפות לחברה הנ”ל, אך תעודות ההכשר ברמת “מהדרין” ו”גלאט” תישללנה ממנה. במהלך הדיון נוכח בית המשפט לדעת כי מגמתה של הרבנות הינה למנוע הגעת בשר לא-כשר לצרכנים יהודים. גם במקרה זה לא קיבל השופט חשין את עמדת הרבנות, וזאת על אף שמדובר בתעודות הכשר נוספות מעבר לזו הבסיסית. טענת הרבנות היתה כי תעודות “מהדרין” הינן בגדר הסדר וולונטארי והן אינן ניתנות מכוח חוק הכשרות. פסק הדין דוחה טענה זו מכל וכל וקובע כי על אף שבסמכותה של הרבנות לתת תעודות כשרות ברמות שונות ולדרוש לשם כך דרישות הלכתיות שונות, הרי ש”דין תעודת הכשר “מהדרין” כדין תעודת הכשר רגילה. ומה זו האחרונה22
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I didn’t go through the article with a fine-tooth comb, but as far I could see, court involvement has been limited to preventing the Rabbanut from imposing conditions not directly related to kashrut. It appears, however, that they avoid getting involved in the halachic determination of kashrut. Did I miss something?
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Rav Danny Eisenberg
Did I miss something?
Yes.
You wrote:
“On that basis, presumably rabbanim involved in those Rabbanuyot which set lower standards, would not use the products they give a regular hechsher to themselves”.
See pages 14-15.
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Meir Gershon would eat them as he has been quoted as being uncomfortable with those who give selected Kashrus but wouldn’t eat it themselves. I remember Rav Chaim Gutnick gave Ungers a Hechsher before the central Kashrus and he always ate Ungers (even though Hungarians don’t) His son Rabbi Mordechai Gutnick also eats Ungers, for example.
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